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NW501:Annette & Dreamer (Pomeranian, CO)

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    • #7123
      Annette Miller
      Spectator

      Dreamer and I started nosework classes about five years ago. We were traveling over five hours one way to attend class. I cannot do that anymore so we have been training on our own for the past four years. Dreamer will be nine years old in September. He has his NW1 title. He much prefers anise to birch and it is evident when he has a choice. I have limited access to interiors and this has been our difficulty at two level 2 attempts. I need help with level 2 hides, converging odors, handling to move him through the search area within allotted time. We are excited to learn!

    • #7125

      Welcome Annette & Dreamer! ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #7135

      Since Interior spaces are a challenge for you to locate, we’ll work some vehicles. We’ll start with the challenge of getting Dreamer to move thru the search looking for more hides. So of course, we’ll have MANY opportunities for success with ANISE. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Hopefully you can manage to find multiple vehicles (any kind) where you can place several accessible hides within Dreamer’s reach. Depending on the number of vehicles you have access to, you’re going to place anywhere from 3-6 hides on each vehicle and you’re going to PAIR them so Dreamer can self-reward. (I’d say a maximum of 12 hides or so, if you have the props to use.) Be sure to give Dreamer some SPACE so you’re not too close. Remember, he will self-reward so you don’t need to be on top of him for him to get rewarded unless he goes back to a hide.

      Also, if he misses a hide just keep going! Do not stop at each hide! He is directing the search and where he goes.

      If Dreamer goes back to an existing hide as he’s trying to locate more odor you’re going to pay again. Be sure to have food at the ready so you’re not late in your rewards! ๐Ÿ™‚ If he continues to go back to the same hides w/o finding others you can pick up the ones he keeps hitting so he’ll hopefully start looking for the others.

      Keep your search within about 3 minutes. Dreamer should have LOTS of success in that time but it does not matter if he doesn’t get all of them!

      NOTE: Vehicles is HARD to videotape! Do you have someone who can help you video and get most of your search w/o following too closely?? More distance is better than too close. If not we’ll look at another element. Alternatively if you can set your camera on a tripod and get a good angle of the search area it might work ok. Since this is your first course here, let me know if you need help uploading video. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #7165
      Annette Miller
      Spectator

      We completed the first assignment. The video is a few seconds over, but this is my first time uploading, editing video, so it took me a long time to get this done. The search was outside, early morning, about 70 degrees with very little breeze. I think he got all but one hide. I tried letting him self reward( the hides were all paired with food.) He would not leave without me paying, sometimes several times. LOL

      Annette and Dreamer

    • #7174

      Kudos to your videographer! ๐Ÿ˜€ Great job getting a vehicle search that is easier to view. ๐Ÿ™‚

      There are a few things to note in this search;

      I’m guessing you’ve worked a lot with Dreamer to get him to stay at source, yes? This is a good skill but it needs to be balanced with the dog learning to move on from one hide to the next (as you’ve noted).

      Dreamer does a nice job locating the hides. He seems to be working hard and locates them well but as you’ve said, he doesn’t want to leave them without additional rewards. It appears he’s become very conditioned to that routine. A problem that can occur is by you having to move him on from one hide you in a way, direct him where to search next. On vehicles it works fine. In a different search it may inhibit him from going to another nearby odor. He’s also NOT in search mode at that moment and you do need him engaged in searching, ideally from one hide to the next.

      Normally we’d discuss more about the search – and you’re welcome to give me more feedback but I see a direction I’d like to try.

      So for your next assignment I’m going to propose you do something a bit different. Let’s have you find a spot inside your home or secure interior where you can place multiple open boxes with paired hides relatively close to each other – figure 6-8 boxes placed 3-4′ apart. Let’s use Anise AND Birch this time. Place a chair at one side and have a seat. Dreamer will be off leash. Since each container will be paired, you will let Dreamer self-reward and you can verbally indicate for him to continue searching but STAY SEATED. You will have to wait him out and I’m betting he *WILL* move on, once he understands you’re not going to re-pay him at the hide he just got.

      NOW, if he does happen to keep searching and goes BACK to a previous hide, go ahead and pay him. Then you’ll go back to your seat without luring/helping him move onto the next one.

      This search may take him awhile to figure out the game. Let’s see what he does in 3 minutes. IF he’s working ON HIS OWN you’ll keep going until he finds all the hides or at least the majority of them. Be patient and wait him out! ๐Ÿ™‚

      p.s. I’m not sure why your video link didn’t pop up in your post, it looked like you did it correctly. Be sure to not “add link,” just paste the link in the body of the text and it will open a window into the video. I edited it so it did. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #7178
      Annette Miller
      Spectator

      Kimberly, Thank you. The video showed his determination to stay with odor, anise. We had trouble at the last trial, I could not get him off the first hide(anise) to work the second hide( birch). He also tends to pass a high hide to stay at a low hide. He has had surgeries on his back legs for bad patellas. I am starting to recognize his marking of odor, he will turn his head and look at it as he goes by. He did it in the video. He went past the high hide on the second vehicle, then went back to it, close to the end of the video, from the other side ( next to last find). He is perfectly capable of clearly indicating a hide out of his reach, he regularly, daily, tells me when he wants his food on the counter, or a treat on top of the tv stand. Annette

    • #7183

      Yep, and as long as we can read that behavior, that’s all that counts! ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #7190
      Annette Miller
      Spectator

      Kim, I pasted the link, but the video still does not appear. I do not know how to fix it. If you have any ideas let me know. the video uploads, the link appears. I click the share button and copy and paste the link but the video doesn’t pop up.

      Dreamer moved from box to box much more quickly than I thought he would. When he searched the box by the door, the flap of the box folded in, I decided to let him work it out. I was late with rewards a few times but he was moving off to search so I pushed it a bit. I look forward to your feedback. Annette

    • #7191
      Annette Miller
      Spectator

      VOILA! When I submitted the reply, the video appeared.:)

    • #7197

      Hi Annette – somehow you disabled playback on the video? Could you adjust that so we can see the video playback above? Thanks!

      First off, that could not be any cuter!! Dreamer worked really hard to get his nose to source in those boxes! ๐Ÿ™‚

      I guess I should have stated that the search should end at 3 minutes or sooner, once Dreamer got all the hides. Oops, my fault. He really started to understand moving on! If you watch the video you aren’t able to get there in time to repay him and he’s already moving on to the next one. We should have had twice the number of hides! LOL!

      What are your thoughts after working this exercise?? Do you see his understanding?

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #7203
      Annette Miller
      Spectator

      Thank, Kim. I think he is pretty darned cute, too! There were seven boxes. I did stop the video when he found the seventh hide. He revisited the first hide several times, so I picked up that box. then he went back to the others before getting to the last box. He moved from box to box much more quickly than I anticipated.

      I have worked hard to keep him at odor. LOL

      I have been afraid he would give a little indication and leave before I could call it. He has, in the past turned to look at me as he goes by odor and it is very difficult to tell if he is just checking in, which he likes to do, or if he is telling me there is odor, especially if it is a high hide. With his short stature, almost everything is high for him. He will look for the easiest hide, where he can get to source.

      after seeing the video, I can tell Dreamer was enjoying the searching! I think part of the difficulty with moving him on from the vehicle paired hides were the placement of reward, I had to really push the treat into some of the places to get it to stick. HE worked really hard to get his reward. I think I need to do more searches with multiple hides and find a way to make high hides more rewarding for him. Should I expect less in the way of indication on high hides, for now? ON the vehicles, I waited till he had his nose on it, which was a stretch for him. I did not realize until I saw the videos how hard he was working at getting to that odor.

    • #7204

      I think that’s a good plan. When the hides are difficult for him to get to, lower your criteria and let him have that success. If the hide is truly out of his reach you can’t pair it because it’s no longer self rewarding. Keep in mind also, as the pendulum swings this can have an effect on sourceable hides where the dog starts to fringe. So make sure he is still working those as well. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Let’s take this game on the road and see how it works in an exterior environment! ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #7211
      Annette Miller
      Spectator

      Do you want me to work containers outside or an exterior search with multiple hides?

    • #7225

      I would do an Exterior search with multiple hides. I know it’s hard for you to get to Interior locations but if that is easier for you, you can do that element instead. Your choice. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #7247
      Annette Miller
      Spectator

      Kim,

      Help! I set up an exterior search with six hides, all were paired. It took over 6 1/2 minutes. He had no problem sourcing odor. He knew where the first ones were from the start. I saw him glance at two as he went by to get to the third. I tried blocking the hides he found, pulling him away from them, at one point I picked him up. He spent the better part of six minutes refusing to leave hides. He ducked, he swerved, he ran around me, anything to get back to the hide. I was thinking of editing this video, but not sure which part is most beneficial for you to see. Do you have any suggestions based on my description? I need to do something different to get him moving and pulling around an eight pound dog seems ridiculous! He seems to be winning this one.

    • #7254

      You’ve done such a good job of teaching him source is important! He found it and he doesn’t want to leave.

      SO, my question is whether you re-paid him? If the answer is yes, then of course he won’t leave! He succeeded in conquering the challenge, which apparently in his mind is to wait you out and be persistent at source because you WILL pay again!

      If you did not pay again, what did you do instead?

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #7258
      Annette Miller
      Spectator

      I paid if he went back, after I got him away from it and he was searching. Most of the time, I would get between him and source and tell him to go search. I physically moved him off of it by using his harness a few times. He is the most determined little guy. If he wants something off the counter or shelf he will just keep talking, indicating, even if I am in another room. The longest I have counted to date is 2 1/2 hours. And yes, I finally gave in.

      So, up until now, I have been taught odor always pays, if the dog goes back to source, pay. At least twice, I stood still so he couldn’t get to source and he lunged, with his front feet off the ground at the end of the leash to try to get to source. He is little and I have balance and depth perception problems, so I can’t always get between him and odor. I am thinking I need to teach him a move on command but I am unsure how to do that while maintaining his enthusiasm. Some how I need to make the searching more important.

    • #7262

      Yes! This is what you do with multiple hides. IF there is another opportunity for success you do not pay for one the dog has already gotten. Soon the dog learns to look for the “new” hides.

      This is a balance because if the dog is working hard to find those new hides and cannot, we still want them to feel successful so we will pay when they go back to a previous hide. It does seem it will be necessary to NOT pay Dreamer right now, tho’, simply to encourage him to keep looking for more. By pairing it is obvious that he can be rewarded with more hides and you do not need to be there for his reward. You can keep him from going back to a previous hide by you body position (close – unless he pushes thru as you say he does/ or far – to draw him elsewhere) or by using a leash.

      Dreamer shows GREAT persistence but when he always wins there is no incentive for him to keep hunting. And this is a BIG part of NW so you’re starting out the gate handicapped.

      Try your search again but put him on leash if he’s working off-leash. If he’s working on-leash, just don’t let him go back to a previous hide.

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #7276
      Annette Miller
      Spectator

      I tried the search again. I moved one hide that was difficult for him to reach last time. Six hides, birch and/or anise. Temperature low 70’s. 11:00 A.m. No wind. It rained most of the day yesterday and last night, so the ground is moist. The hides were out for about fifteen minutes before we worked the search. It is difficult to see in the video but there is one hide in the far corner on a post. My husband didn’t get the start, but as soon as I put Dreamer down he was running to find odor. I tried to move him on as quickly as possible after he got his treat at each hide. I resisted the urge to pay him again. I was very late telling him good boy and moving him on after he got the hide on the second tree( closest to where we started.) It made a difference in how difficult it was to get him to move on. He was getting the idea, and I was very pleased to see him move off of the last hide on his own. He was trying to get back to the tree, but I will take it! Annette

    • #7282

      Very nice! Good job moving Dreamer on from one hide to the next! And look, 6 hides in just over 2 minutes! ๐Ÿ™‚

      So this is a good plan, I think. Your leash pressure after the first hide (we see) and verbal “let’s go” was good and it got better as each hide was found. I recommend keeping him on leash for the next few searches and when he starts to move on WITHOUT any pressure then you can go back to off-leash and just use your verbals. This will be a process and you may need to go back to the leash if he then keeps going back to other hides but I think this will work well.

      The ideal picture: Dreamer works away from you, finds a hide, you go in and pay, Dreamer moves on his own to find the next hide in the direction of his choosing. He will have the ability to go back to previous hides not for repayment but to help him triangulate other hides. Yes, it is possible. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Let’s have the next search with 5-6 hides, Interior or Exterior but on-leash and see if Dreamer has had learning from this search!

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #7284
      Annette Miller
      Spectator

      Thank you, Kim. I was very proud of him! He has an ear infection and has antibiotic creme in his ear, but it doesn’t slow his searching, he is a little trooper.

    • #7311

      That persistence will definitely help you in the long run! ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #7356
      Annette Miller
      Spectator

      Long Week. I rented a community building for this search. There are five hides, all paired. My focus was seeing if I could get Dreamer to move away with just my voice and some body pressure. I think we accomplished that goal. I let him go back to hides, on purpose this time to see what it would take for him to move on. I think he did pretty well. I made a couple of handling mistakes. When he was at the middle chair, after he was moving on he got the leash wrapped and as I was bending over to untangle the leash I should have kept my mouth shut. I said,” where is it?” and brought him back to the hide he was moving away from. He went back to the table leg, on the right side of the screen, a couple of times. There was a hide there previously, but I had a camera malfunction so this is the second set of searches we did. Overall I am pleased with his search.

    • #7370

      Dreamer did a great job! He’s much more responsive to your asking him to move on. Eventually you should just be able to say “Good boy” and he’ll keep working. ๐Ÿ™‚

      So I think you’re making good progress! Don’t feel badly about the leash tangle, I know it’s difficult with a little dog who can easily go under chairs and other object getting the leash caught up. You did a pretty good job of keeping it smooth. ๐Ÿ™‚

      I think the next step is for you to go in and pay and then ask him to continue searching. Don’t pay if he goes back to a hide, just try “Good Boy” and see if that works. If that doesn’t work, you can re-cue him. If that doesn’t work try your verbal “Let’s go.” If that doesn’t work take a TINY step to break the odor trance. ๐Ÿ˜‰

      I know finding Interiors is difficult. You can do this outside if you have a new Exterior where you could put multiple hides?

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #7377
      Annette Miller
      Spectator

      I can do an exterior search this afternoon or tomorrow. I rented the building for Wed
      nesday afternoon.

    • #7380

      Ok, then let’s work on the Exterior search and then see what modifications we can come up with for your next Interior. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #7386
      Annette Miller
      Spectator

      This search is outside. Temperature is in the low 80’s. There is a cool breeze blowing from left to right and across to the upper right corner of the screen. The wind was over five miles per hour. So you may need to turn down the volume. There were six hides. Three each of birch and anise. None were paired. I trimmed the video when he searched the railing around the upper picnic table just for time. He worked quickly down the rail and headed toward the pavement when I called him. He found five of the hides in 3:06 minutes. The 6th hide was on the very large tree trunk to the right of the screen( you will see it when he is on the pavement just before he heads back to the grass.) He seems to be getting the idea, but needs a little movement from me to move away from the hide and go on.

    • #7405

      Yeah! He does seem to be getting it, tho’! I think this was a good improvement from where you started, certainly! And yes, I can see where a tiny bit of motion from you is needed at times to get Dreamer moving off of a hide. Your option to pay him again when he re-finds a hide after working.

      Dreamer reminds me of a Tribble when he searches! ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #7409
      Annette Miller
      Spectator

      I sometimes scissor his coat shorter in the Summer, but didn’t this year. I am setting up searches in the building I rented in about 1/2 an hour. If you see this before then I welcome your input.

    • #7415

      I’m guessing you’re in the midst of working your search. I would just say do the same thing! Working multiple areas and reinforcing Dreamer moving on from one hide to the next – and for both of you to get comfortable with it – will be super for your ability to work a search area w/o knowing where the hides are. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

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