Home › Forums › ARCHIVES › NW501: Troubleshooting for NW2/3/+ › NW501: GOLD Students (Private Lessons, OK for all to view!) › NW501: Linda & Molly (Lab/mix Ak)
- This topic has 44 replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 09/04/2016 at 5:00 pm by Kimberly Buchanan.
07/21/2016 at 9:14 am #7114Linda BathParticipant
Molly and I have been partners in Nose Work for the last five/six years. She has earned her NW2 and is scheduled for NW3 trial in late August. Recently a torn ACL has slowed down her down and Molly is starting to look like an elder at eight. This doesn’t stop the sniffing though!
Building confidence in Molly to trust herself. We have been working off leash more, which is helping, but she still needs to check in on me a lot and is very tuned into my body motion. (May be part border collie)
I would say our weakest searches are Exterior. Converging odor and being able to cover the area to pin down the odor at source.
Still working on Pawing, seems better.
Looking forward to all we can learn.
07/22/2016 at 12:23 am #7117Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
Welcome back Linda & Molly! 🙂
Joyride K9 Dog Training
07/24/2016 at 9:05 pm #7130Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
In your first lesson, I am going to be somewhat specific; Because you’re working on CONFIDENCE in addition to other things, I’d like to start with that aspect. If you can locate a decent sized interior search area, I’d like you to place 6-8 hides in a search area with the hides no less than 5 feet apart. Keep them no higher than nose-height.
This will be an off-leash search for Molly. You will be pre-loaded (if possible) with multiple rewards in your hand and have a QUICK way to gather more for more rewards.
Release Molly and as soon as she is showing signals that she has found a hide you will RUSH in to pay her. Do not wait for a look or other communication! The idea is to race her to the hide and when she gets there she is quickly rewarded. When you release her to find the next hide you can stand in front of the hide she just found but don’t worry about body-blocking, just encourage her to keep working. She has MANY reward opportunities!
If Molly does not find all the hides or if she keeps going back to hides she’s already found don’t worry about it! Just pay her each time and end your search around the 3 minute mark. You can move away from a hide if you think it will draw her in an area to find more. What I’m looking for is how quickly she finds odor, whether she proceeds to look for more or defaults to an existing hide and how her enthusiasm and energy is throughout the entire search. 🙂
(Note: If you can’t find an Interior area to accommodate, work in an Exterior on leash but try not to direct her.)
Joyride K9 Dog Training
07/25/2016 at 4:59 pm #7147Linda BathParticipant
Hi Kim. My video after being cut is still 3:50 minutes. At 3 minutes Molly acts like she forgets to search and then does go on to find one more. Do you mind watching it even being longer or do you want me to further cut it?
I am good with either
07/26/2016 at 11:31 am #7155Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
No, go ahead and include all of it for this first one. Let’s see if we can figure out what Molly’s doing around that 3 minute mark and what brings her back to search mode.
Joyride K9 Dog Training
07/26/2016 at 2:13 pm #7158Linda BathParticipant
Thank you Kim..here goes.
This search was in a large airplane hanger/garage. Lots of stuff going on. An L shape with the small part of the L not in the search area, but did have that door open. I put in eight hides.
Threshold hide (birch) in the drawer on the right.
Tool box (anise) to the left
Sink on the righ hand side as you look at it, underneath (birch)
Broken drawer (open) past sink
plane front left strut (anise)
Garage door just past plane lower pipe (mixed odor)
Ice chest (cloves)
Gun case to the right of the entry door, past threshold (anise)
I held Molly for a minute at door in hopes she would catch the threshold hide, but she instead blew left past the tool box, sink, drawer, and airplane. I thought she caught odor at the garage door hide, but kept going to the cooler. Alert. Nice..I did say the dreaded Yes word.
Molly then moved on towards the gun cabinet and threshold (drawer). I think she caught the odor on the gun cabinet, but it was stronger at the drawer. Nice work pinpointing it. Molly then returned to the right past the tool box hide (front edge on the left, looking at it) to the sink and again does a nice job pinpointing the odor. Here is where it all starts to fall apart. My first mistake is not luring her from the odor in the beginning and then as she expectantly waits I break down and give her a treat. Molly finally starts searching again, but wants to see on top of the bench..which if she hadn’t had surgery I would have let her jump up and check…this is where I had set the bag of odor while I hid them. I tell her no…I assume not a good idea, but she then catches the odor in the drawer. Great! I then make another mistake and feed her treats while she is looking at me instead of having her nose on the odor!!!!! Aarrrg! Three minute mark here. Now Molly figures if she looks at me long enough she will get a treat. They learn quick! I do not give her a treat so she continues to look and finds the odor on the garage door. After the video was turned off Molly went on to find the gun cabinet without me asking her too.
A complete learning experience for me. On retrospect I think the hides were too close together in such a large area. I know Molly can find them, but should have possibly spread them out a little bit better. What do you think? Did I miss anything else?
07/27/2016 at 2:33 pm #7167Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
I’ve been thinking about Molly’s search…
Part of the criteria is for you to rush in and pay fast – before Molly has a chance to give you signals. Why? Because it is not about the communication but the motivation. The more you require of her the less motivated she potentially gets. We want her to build more independence so when you don’t know where hides are SHE will tell YOU!
Let’s break it down;
Molly begins the search with lots of enthusiasm. Yeah! She does a general check of the room and makes her way to the cooler hide. You don’t get there fast enough and she looks at you before payment. You also pay many times. I would pay once and move on. In some cases multiple rewards are good but for this exercise it’s about Molly taking the initiative and finding more. You also lure her off the hide which tells her the direction she is to go. SHE should be making that decision, especially with a lot of possible hides, so I would try not to direct if possible.
For the next hide I’d have paid her around (:53). She was at the location, no not exactly on, but you could see she’d located a hide. So you waited for her to get closer (which I understand) but you were in a position that made her slide a glance at you and then you paid a moment later.
The next hide you used a bridge of celebration as you went in to pay, which seemed to work pretty well, tho’ she did get a chance to look at you. Molly stayed and waited for her reward. (Good girl!) You did a good job standing in front of that hide and asking her to continue working. 🙂
It is a tough call when you have a dog who was injured but Molly didn’t seem to be bothered by the “no” when she tried to jump up on the bench. You can see she’s working the drawer odor. Maybe some of your lingering kit but she did figure the drawer soon so I’d say that was a lot of what was happening. I would have paid her immediately (2:51) but you asked her to source it again for you. And yes, again paying for her looking at you. 😉
Molly did a BEAUTIFUL job of locating the last hide! Really lovely! And you did race in to pay her, tho’ again she was able to look at you.
SO – what does this mean? Molly certainly enjoyed the search! Her attitude was up and she was paid well. However, I think she is still quite dependent upon you. Watch the video and see if you notice the same things I did. It is a fine balance of being too close to the dog to pay quickly (and thereby cuing the dog or distracting the dog) vs too far away to give them room and then rushing in, possibly startling or distracting them by doing that. 🙂
I think the hides were spaced just fine! SUPER fun search area!! What I would suggest is to try a similar search and PAIR the (accessible) hides. See if there is anything you notice differently in how Molly searches. You will not pay her again, so once she gets the initial paired reward she needs to move on to find more. TRY not to pick up the hides but IF you have to in order to get her to move on if might be necessary.
Joyride K9 Dog Training
07/29/2016 at 7:21 pm #7192Linda BathParticipant
Yes Kim, I do see what you are telling me. Molly is enthusiastic and searches very well. I am not getting there fast enough and when I pay it is for looking at me!!!! I love the location and hope to use it again. The next location is also a great search area. Another large garage with nooks and crannies among stuff.
There are eight hides.
The first one is a threshold to the left of the door on the cabinet, bottom left (birch).
On the air boat. Rear left fender (mixed).
On table between couch and chair (cloves).
Back wall table/cabinet, in the middle first shelf (cloves)
In front of free standing table are two brown, big, plastic totes. The one to the right has a (birch) odor on the rim.
On the opposite wall to the door is more cabinets, boxes, stuff. Between the cabinet and the boxes on the floor. (anise)
Next to the air boat is a tracker (4 wheeler on steroids). On the front, driver side, wheel (hub) (birch).
Last hide is on the left garage door on the right side, nose height.
Molly enters the room and immediately veers right. Catches odor (possibly both the hub and threshold) decides to follow back and alert on the threshold. Gets her treat. Expects more. I encourage her to continue searching, which she does. Molly goes past the hub, catches odor and does a nice job bracketing it back. Alert, treat, wait, ask her to move on. Molly makes a beeline to the hide on the brown tote. Alerts. Again I ask her to move on and she does. Goes around the table and back catching a lot of odor on the box. I am thinking that was from the tote.
Molly then goes along the wall catches odor and comes back to alert. Here she starts pawing. I ask her to leave and then step in front of the hide. She then works back and works out the hide on the track. At this point three minutes is up and we stop.
I think Molly did very well continuing to work. Should I have waited for her to move on from the hides on her own, rather than asking her? Do you need to know what the odors are? I don’t think Molly has a problem with any of them.
After a break I let her come in and finish finding the rest of the hides. The garage door took her a little bit of work, but she finally figured it out. Pretty successful lesson for both of us. I think more like this with pairing is a good idea.
07/30/2016 at 11:57 pm #7198Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
You can absolutely SEE when Molly finds the hides by her tail wag! She didn’t seem to have any trouble with any of the hides. She was a bit confused (and a little frustrated) about why you wouldn’t pay her again. 🙂 What you might offer her instead is a pat and a good girl before you ask her to “Find more.” I do think she needs to be re-cued so that part worked well. It just seemed she needed a little bit more from you. (I didn’t tell you this but now that I see the video, I think it might help her to move on easier.)
What do you think about that?
Joyride K9 Dog Training
07/31/2016 at 6:55 am #7201Linda BathParticipant
I agree. Molly is used to more and needed the encouragement. I do believe from watching this, she will get where it will be more. Maybe sometimes give her more treats and sometimes pats. In trial she never has trouble moving on after one treat. Originally I started paying so much as I had quit doing so and Molly lost interest and wasn’t using her wonderful point.
In the beginning she would point her nose on it and not move. Then she got where she didn’t give a clear alert, moved away, acted like she had never seen nose work games before. With what I know now, I was probably giving her mixed signals and not rewarding her enough. As you already know not fast enough!
Anyway, I was happy with this lesson. Should we continue with it and patting her to move on?
07/31/2016 at 11:36 am #7206Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
Yes! And let’s try this kind of search outside! 🙂
Joyride K9 Dog Training
07/31/2016 at 12:56 pm #7209Linda BathParticipant
OK!! Probably tomorrow so I can have someone film it. Thanks
08/03/2016 at 8:34 pm #7249Linda BathParticipant
I apologize for the quality of this video. The beginning is blurry, but gets better. I didn’t explain to the videographer that they could move closer so we could see Molly better. I do believe it still shows some positive and negative, so will use it anyway.
There were seven hides, some cloves, birch, anise, and one mixed.
In the wood pile, slightly elevated
Across from the wood pile, foot of the well house, by rake.
One on the back of the first Adriatic (sp) chair
On the table of the double chairs, one furthest away.
Bottom of spool (table) beside the double chair.
One on the ground inside the over turned bench.
And one just left of the chairs and up from the overturned bench in the grass.
Molly is very excited and happy. Runs into the search area, catches odor, slips, turns and finds the wood pile hide. With encouragement she moves on, happy. Continues on odor moving around the outside of the chairs to the odor on spool. Moves away from hide area and picks up the odor by the overturned bench. Does a nice job of figuring out how to get to it. I then end up moving in Molly’s way and standing in front of hide in the grass. Don’t realize this until I watch the video.
Molly works the inside of the search area and finds the odor on the double chair. Even jumping up (yeah!). Molly then works back up to original hide on the wood pile. Follows the odor but goes past the well house and over to the bushes. I call her to keep Molly from going into a very steep hole. If I had not interupted her she may have been able to follow it back to the well house. Meanwhile she does work it to the Adriatic chair. Returns to wood pile looks around, sniffs at what I believe was crittering smell, then moves on. You can’t see it, but Molly goes to the outside of the area and pees.
End of video.
Molly has not peed in a search area since the beginning. To be fair I did not empty her before doing this search.
I was so shocked all I could do was laugh and stop the search.
Before that moment I do believe she was on odor most of the time, just working out what was the strongest first. Molly was relaxed and having a good time.
I am going to Sitka for five days. Won’t be able to do a new search till next Thursday the 11. Molly isn’t coming with me.
As always look forward to your take on this and what we will do next. I do believe we are making progress.
08/05/2016 at 4:04 pm #7270Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
Oh gosh! I thought I reviewed this already!
Molly was off to the races in this search! 🙂 Tho’ I was a bit concerned when she slipped in the grass. She looked happy and motivated to keep finding more hides. She did need your encouragement to keep moving tho’ I think when you did *slightly* less encouragement she didn’t race away and was more focused.
Note the head-turn at (1:37) as she passed the Adirondack chair, she noticed something there while headed back to the wood pile. 🙂
Molly was pretty focused for most of the search. She found 5 hides, I think? out of the 7 out there. The two she missed was the one you mentioned accidentally blocking and the rake which was near the beginning of the search.
I’m inclined to add you back into the picture again. I’d like to try another multiple hide search, outside, paired sourceable hides. This time you’ll work her ON-leash and let’s see what happens when you walk thru the search only once. So, for example, if this were your search, as Molly headed to the wood pile at the close right portion where the hide was, start there and make your way thru the search counter clockwise without going back to the wood pile. If she misses a hide, she misses a hide. What we want to see is whether she can be more efficient on-leash instead of boinging around back and forth when she’s off-leash. I LIKE her enthusiasm, and she seems really happy to be outside, so I don’t want to diminish it but try to get her a bit more studious as she goes by an area. 🙂
Videotape the search. Then what you will do is remove her from the search area to give her a small break, then bring her back and work the search area the opposite direction with the same hides (re-pair the ones she already got). For this type of search area, I’d expect each search to be around 2 minutes. You’re going to keep a decent pace, neither too fast or slow, making sure to keep her working the whole time. And let’s see what happens!
Joyride K9 Dog Training
08/05/2016 at 5:48 pm #7273Linda BathParticipant
Molly was thrilled for sure. I too was concerned with her slipping and climbing up on the chair. I will do the next search this coming Thursday, as I am in Sitka. Sounds like fun! Thank you Kim
08/12/2016 at 10:42 pm #7350Linda BathParticipant
Hi Kim. Finally back from Sitka and found a videographer. You will see Molly did very well with distraction of a four year old and that she minds much better than he does. Smile.
Eight hides in a yard used by three dogs and children. I used toys strewn throughout the yard. The wind was gently blowing towards the start line. There is a house on one side and bushes opposite of the wall. A car is just past where I set up the start line. The hides are clove, anise, and birch. Did not check to see what odor was at what hide.
One at the start on the child’s bike middle of the handle bars. (Did not see dog poop was on the tire. Till the end.)
One is under the corner of the skateboard.
One hide in a planter against the wall.
One under the three wheeler, about the middle of the yard.
One at the left corner in the hollow of the tree.
Opposite corner a hide in the grass.
One is against the bushes nestled under the water pipe. Left side closer to the start.
Total of seven hides.
Molly heads out enthusiastically to skateboard hide. Then moves to the right towards house. Past planter, catches odor and alerts on hide in planter. Heads up towards right corner turns towards 3wheeler but catches odor on tree. Molly does a nice job working out how to get to it and where it was. Molly then heads towards far corner against house. She is standing on hide while sniffing plastic bottle with fish juice in it. Decides to move on returns to tree, then moves down the bushes to hide on water pipe. Molly then starts crittering at bushes, she decides to move on but I think she was still crittering until she caught odor again. (Whew!) She lifts her nose and goes back to corner hide. Alert. Then to 3wheeler. Alert. Has some problems from bike, but works through the dog poop on tire and alerts right at 3min. This is huge for her as she is one who hates to walk or be near dog poop.
I think she did a nice job making decisions to move on and look for more. After watching this video I believe I need to go back to a longer leash. I found that I pulled her, just from not being fast enough for her. Kim, Molly looks relaxed and is having fun again. Nice.
What should we do next? Ok just read the directions again(should have reviewed) will redo lesson tomorrow.
08/14/2016 at 7:50 pm #7369Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
Oh MY! I’m not sure how you kept your cool with the youngster running around in Molly’s search!? GOOD GIRL, Molly!!
So yes… not exactly what the lesson was supposed to be but I would agree Molly looked happy and enthusiastic. She got caught up a few times in critters but refocused pretty well. 🙂
I’m hoping you were able to complete the other lesson? What I’m looking for is a bit more stick-to-it-ivness when Molly is working an area, rather than boinging from one side to the next. She definitely works it out but I think it would be good to experiment with some efficiency. 🙂
Joyride K9 Dog Training
08/14/2016 at 10:00 pm #7374Linda BathParticipant
I am hoping to have a videographer tomorrow. Sans small child so we can focus better.
My nephew is a bit of a handful. He wanted to watch, but couldn’t contain himself. Good practice for Molly. At least she ignored him. Did you hear him telling her where they were?
Tomorrow the lesson will be as requested and both Molly and I will be focused.
Thank you for your patience.
08/15/2016 at 12:14 pm #7379Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
NO problem! It’s all good! 🙂
Joyride K9 Dog Training
08/15/2016 at 10:05 pm #7387Linda BathParticipant
Today’s search was not a good video. Try again tomorrow with another videographer. Aarg!!!
08/16/2016 at 11:51 am #7396Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
Aw darn! Hard to get good help. (But you’re still getting in the training!) 😉
Joyride K9 Dog Training
08/17/2016 at 12:02 am #7400Linda BathParticipant
Success! The videos are here.
6 hides cooked for around 30 minutes. The wind was blowing pretty briskly towards us on the first video.
To the left of start is a hide on the swing set at the base of the pool.
In blue wagon
Edge of the fireplace brick
Across from the fireplace in the wood pile.
About a foot from the tree by the rocks.
Up from all of these in the grass
These are birch/anise/and cloves.
Side note: Molly didn’t want her breakfast so had not eaten. It was almost dinner time. I usually feed her a little before to take the edge off and I didn’t this time. You can see she was all about the hot dogs.
Molly starts out strong and runs straight to the wagon. Then moves up to the fireplace. Over and up to the hide in the grass. I pulled her off of the hide!!! Then walk in front of her!! Molly walks by the hide in the rocks, catches odor and goes on to alert. Next she does a nice job of working out source on the wood pile. Again Molly is all about the food. I lure her and now Molly is watching my hands for more. Decided to search and alerts on the last hide.
Just over 2 minutes.
The next search we started back from the hide in the grass. The wind is still blowing, but starts to swirl more.
Molly heads in fast, goes past grass hide, rock hide, and over to fireplace. Again I am pulling her off. Need to reward more? At least a pat on the head? Molly then goes past wood pile over to grass and works the odor to swing. Turns and alerts on the hide in the wagon. Then up to the woodpile. Here she stays on the odor until I reward her again. Molly then alerts on the rock hide. Then moves up past the odor in the grass back to fireplace. Back to Hide in grass and alerts.
Molly worked the odors very well. Wasn’t bouncing around. Only pawed once at the grass hide. I forgot to reward her more, even if it was a pat. Watching these two videos I am seeing my handler skills have taken a deep dive. Any deeper and I would be drowning! Smile. I am having a hard time with leash handling, Keep pulling her off odor, and walking in front of her. I do know better than that. Pulling her off odor is from not rewarding her, so I can fix that pretty easy. Walking in front of her, just have to remember not to. Now leash handling, help! It keeps getting caught in her legs, all over the place.
As always a huge learning experience. What do you see in how Molly worked the odor and my handler actions.
Thank you as always.
08/17/2016 at 3:11 pm #7414Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
Ok, the good news, Molly is working really well! She’s focused in the search and generally willing to move on to find more hides!
What I was looking for was for you to not let Molly pass hides because she wouldn’t get another opportunity to search the area. Maybe I didn’t explain that well. We’re looking for search efficiency with a single pass thru. And then, after she worked the hides with some leash pressure (holding her from going too far) in one direction, work the search from the opposite direction to see if she learned from the first time thru. Hides won’t have moved but the direction of approach would be opposite. So think of a big circle around the yard with hides on the perimeter. Don’t get to go back, so you need to see what helps her find them along the way.
It’s an exercise a bit out of your normal comfort zone and more about your part in the search rather than just following where Molly wants to go. 🙂
Regarding the leash handling, try moving UP on the leash more, rather than raising your arm to keep it from not getting caught under Molly. Also, never let it drop on the ground when you go in to reward or at other times. That’s usually where things go wrong. You could use much less leash and it might be easier to handle. Maybe 3-4′ less?
Joyride K9 Dog Training
08/17/2016 at 5:10 pm #7420Linda BathParticipant
Ok. I think I understand it more. For example: If it was a box search..no matter the shape of the search, one go around at each box, moving on if there is no alert. Then come back the other direction to see if Molly would alert faster instead of catagorizing first, and then going back to the hide?
Will try shorter leash, but not too short, and not letting it fall on the ground.
08/18/2016 at 11:01 am #7422Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
Correct – this is an exercise to see if you can get Molly to make a decision when directed to search an area. I’ve been applying this lately to my dogs to see if it helps our efficiency and it really does! Of course, there are times when your dog needs more freedom but as an exercise and as an experiment, see how this works for you as a team.
Joyride K9 Dog Training
08/22/2016 at 11:20 am #7443Linda BathParticipant
Finally here it goes. Deb was kind enough to help me with this after an afternoon of searches with her class.
Molly had already done four searches before this one.
Five hides set up with misc odors.
First hide was to the left and up from the start. On the ground in the bushes.
Second hide was still on the left of the start but near the corner of the house. (this had been in one of Molly’s earlier searches.
Third hide was on the closer of the two benches. Located on the left/rear leg near the bottom. (This too had been in one of Molly’s earlier searches.)
Fourth hide was at the base of the big tree.
Fifth hide was a little higher up on the other tree.
Wind is blowing towards us.
Molly starts strong and goes right past the first hide, investigates second but doesn’t alert to it. Past third hide without stopping. Deb tells me to slow down. Alerts on the tree. Proceeds to next tree and alerts.
Now the other direction. Molly alerts on first hide. Moves on to second and sources from back side of tree, alert.
As we move on I reach in for more treats. Molly hears that and stops expecting a treat. I stop and wait for her to move on. Molly then alerts on bench. Wants to go opposite direction of hide and I pull her to go with me. She again investigates but doesn’t alert on corner hide. Move forward and alerts on last hide.
Curious she didn’t alert on the corner of the house. I thought it could have been due to it being in an earlier search, but then she wouldn’t have alerted on any of them.
08/22/2016 at 1:39 pm #7446Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
Ok! Much better…
The structure of the search went much better this time. As you can see, it is possible for Molly to cover the search area and locate many hides in a short amount of time. The one thing I would encourage you to do, knowing where the hides are, and for this exercise, is to not let Molly move forward until she investigates an area. I agree with Deb, you were a bit quick on the first round and let Molly blow by two of the hides. You see slow-down but you don’t respond in a way that tells her she should “make sure” or “check harder.”
Note: She begins in a place that is guaranteed to miss the first hide to your left. She notices it (:03) but keeps going. The second hide on the corner we see her investigate but when she moves off the hide your shoulders/movement say “let’s go” and she goes with you (:10).
Coming back Molly does a better job of checking the areas. When she gets to the corner of the building your shoulders are saying “let’s move on” and then Molly gets caught up in the bush. I’m wondering how much pee/critter smell there is at that location? She looks like she’s multitasking and probably could benefit from some additional training w/ pairing in more distracting areas. Then we see Molly successfully locate the final hide.
What are your thoughts?
Joyride K9 Dog Training
08/22/2016 at 3:11 pm #7447Linda BathParticipant
Very interesting. I had not thought about the crittering at the corner of the building. That was how she was acting, even though I knew odor was there. Earlier Molly as well as other dogs had got caught up along the edge of the house and the edge of the yard. Total crittering.
I did see the movement of my shoulders. Video is so important! Molly is so tuned into my actions, she doesn’t yet trust her own.
When using pairing is it a good idea to mix it up? IE: Within a search have some paired and some not.
What should we do next to add to this lesson?
08/22/2016 at 4:05 pm #7448Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
Regarding pairing – it kind of depends on the dog. In GENERAL and IMO, if you have some hides paired and some hides not paired you would pair those that are more challenging. However, if the search itself is the challenge then I would pair all of the hides. Or if you know your dog will only go to the paired hides you will need to examine why that is and consider faster payment when the hides are not paired. OR if you’re working on standing back further from the dog, or working on precise timing you’d pair all the hides. ETC. It really depends on what you’re working on and it’s not an exact science, for sure. 😉
In your initial message you mention that converging odor is a challenge. We’ve worked a lot of MULTIPLE HIDE searches and how to work thru the search area and you’ll want to continue experimenting with that. We could switch over to working simple convergent odor problems next?
What I would suggest is a small-ish interior search area with 2 hides at nose-height level. Make the hides about 5-6 feet apart. You can pair them if you think it will help. This will be an off-leash search and you don’t need to get too close unless you need to help Molly move on from one hide to the next. Hopefully she does this on her own now, after having many multiple hide searches in a row. This should be a relatively short video so let’s see how she does and then I’ll decide which direction to take you in next. 🙂
Joyride K9 Dog Training
08/23/2016 at 3:54 pm #7455Linda BathParticipant
Very good information about the pairing. I will have to digest it.
This search has two hides, nose level. Birch and Cloves. Cooked for two hours.
One just inside the door, in the drawer. Second one nose level on the closet door.
Molly races in past both hides. Interested, but did not stay on the hides. Obviously smelling odor the whole time, just not deciding where they are. Alerts on door. Leaves room a couple times and I call her back (realize she may be following the odor). When she is at the odor I prematurely reward her. Should I have let her make up her mind to come back?
Kim, These are hides Molly would have normally had no problem with. Is it normal for a dog to have good days and bad days? As I ask this question, I am thinking probably is.
Tonight I finally had time to read and watch the other posts. Even re-read some I should have remembered. One was you telling us to do easy, one hide searches so our partner doesn’t get burned out. I haven’t been doing that between all the searches.
As always I look forward to your input.
08/24/2016 at 12:15 pm #7458Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
Hm, I’m not sure what to say about this. Molly NOTICED the hides right away but doesn’t commit and I’m not sure why? Was the door open the whole time or did that open just before you walked in? What was the temperature? Cooking for 2 hours in a warm room might have made the odor larger and harder to source. BUT, Molly still should have worked thru that. It’s possible it’s just simply the challenge of convergence and Molly doesn’t quite know what to do with it.
I’d like to see something like this again but make sure both hides are readily available and let’s pair them. IF she gets these quickly, do two more unpaired. Each should be at nose height and only cook them for about 1/4-1/2 hr max this time and see if it makes a difference.
Joyride K9 Dog Training
08/24/2016 at 3:10 pm #7460Linda BathParticipant
Yes. Doesn’t feel good about heading for a NW trial tomorrow. Editing this comment as I realized never told you about the search area. 68 degrees. Doors had been closed until I opened them to do the search. No windows or cracks etc for wind flow.
I am going to get new swabs in case she thinks these are too old, but if I can smell them, I would think she could and would make a decision.
Only other thing I can think of is: Molly has been on antibiotics for a skin issue for ten days.
OK. Going to go set the hides to cook.
08/24/2016 at 10:52 pm #7463Linda BathParticipant
I watched the previous video again and noticed Molly wasn’t wearing her harness? Used two different rooms for this one. First Was the bedroom. 68 degrees temp. 15 min cook of birch and cloves. Paired. One was on the corner at the foot of the bed the other was on the side table by the couch.
Molly came in and found the first hide fairly quickly. She continued and was on odor, just needed to work it out.
Spent quite a bit of time at the side table (previous odor or from the one on the bed?), Molly was able to work it out-note her nose in the air to find the corner hide on the bed.
Second search was again birch and cloves. 15 min cook time. 68 degrees. First was to the right of the door on the cat scratcher. The second was behind the door on the corner of the cabinet. This was a little more difficult. A lot more things in the room to catch odor. Molly spent a long time finding the hides. I believe she was on odor the whole time, but had to work it out. She did get the one by the door fairly quickly. When she got frustrated she kept returning to it. Molly was very thorough, checking her dog kennel, cat boxes, garbage can, etc..but kept missing the cabinet. Towards the end I though she had it, but then moved over to the table and didn’t return to the corner, until I moved over to the door. I let it run over 3 min only so you could see the end. Was a success. Watching the video I should have closed the door after Molly came in. I think that may have made it easier for her to source.
Look forward to your comments. I will be able to check this in the morning, but then we are heading to Ninilchik for the trial there. Might have Internet, but we are camping on the fairgrounds. I am sure I will learn a lot while I am there.
08/26/2016 at 1:01 pm #7470Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
The first search worked pretty well for Molly. The location of the previous hide was a bit of a distraction but she worked it out.
In the second search, there are a few things that might have helped;
* When you open the door to give Molly access to the room, consider what that door then did to the odors. Created a huge fan to move the odors around. You really MUST wait at the threshold a moment so the odors have a chance to settle and Molly has an opportunity to assess the room before entering. It is very possible Molly may have found the hide near the door opening even before coming in but she blasted thru the door into the room with you following which eliminated that possibility. Really important.
* Second thing is that the open door has created a niche in the room that Molly keeps skipping. Many times. So you have two choices when training something like this, well really 3; Close the door behind you and risk the air movement from that. Keep the door OPEN but open further so there is no “behind the door” space that is easily missed. OR, don’t put hides on opposite sides of a door. The actual hide LOCATIONS were great, tho’, for this exercise!
* This is a small room to navigate for a handler and I know how challenging it is to handle and videotape at the same time! But if you take note of your location you were not in a position to DRAW or PUSH Molly over to the location of the second hide and instead you directed her near the end. Sure, we use whatever means we have when we really need the dog to investigate a location but I would suggest you try to use body pressure rather than direction to see if Molly will go into an area or deeper into a space with your position.
The good news is that Molly kept working and really tried to find the source of the second odor! So we’re seeing a bit more resilience, I think and she’s willing to keep trying. 🙂
I think we need to work some more of these! If you don’t have the ability to have someone film you and the space won’t work for a tripod, just do your best to capture what you can. 🙂
Joyride K9 Dog Training
08/29/2016 at 10:43 pm #7488Linda BathParticipant
Hi Kim. Back from the Ninilchik trial. We did not earn our NW3 title. I made two mistakes (that I know of) 1. didn’t call finish at the 30 second warning. Molly was searching odor and almost had me convinced something was there in vehicles. Was pooling due to wind. 2. Didn’t remember to take Molly back to an area she had shown interest in when we still had plenty of time to search! Geeze. Molly missed one hide on her own in containers. Most teams missed the same hide. Not sure why. Molly did a great job of searching, alerting, and sticking to the search.
Anyway we had fun, met a lot of great people, and learned a lot.
Now onto our training here. In the morning we will set up a search and I do have someone to film for me. Will set up two hides/ paired. Then similar search with two hides not paired.
08/30/2016 at 11:17 am #7491Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
Aw, sorry about not titling but so happy you had the opportunity to get some practice in at that trial level! 🙂
Joyride K9 Dog Training
08/31/2016 at 10:29 am #7503Linda BathParticipant
Surprisingly, not titling doesn’t really bother me. Well, maybe a little bit, but I love the journey. I learn so much every time I volunteer, go to trial, meet new people that love the sport. That is all good.
Back to business.
This search was done in the garage. Possible air current from under the garage door. 65 degrees. Hides sat for 15 minutes. Anise and Birch. Clean containers, new swabs, and Molly has her harness on. Smile.
First hide is paired. One to the right of the entrance in a box, slightly elevated. Second hide is across the room on the tool box, nose level.
I hold Molly at the door. Runs almost direct to the tool box. Alert. Molly then makes a sweep of the room. Comes back to the table (catching pooling odor) and returns to toolbox. I reque her. (Should I wait her out?) Another sweep and finds hide. Yeah!
Next search I move the box hide closer to the door on the fridge door. Second hide is on the ladder step. Both at nose level. Unpaired.
I hold Molly again. She runs past the fridge, making a sweep of the room and rechecking where the hides were. At 1:53 looks towards fridge, but catches odor on the ladder. Alert. Continues to search following the pooling odor and comes back to the ladder. At 2:17 I reQued her (should I have waited? Lured her away?) remove odor and Molly goes on another sweep of the room. She spends a lot of time in the alcove across from the fridge odor. Assuming this is where that odor is pooling as well as in the shelving unit behind and around the ladder. While Molly is in Alcove I move to block her from returning to the ladder and she does find the fridge hide, after a confused look at me.
The clatter you hear when she is out of the camera’s sight is her pawing in frustration at a box. Molly doesn’t give up though and continues to search.
If I read this right: Lots of pooling odor created from the open door we entered from and from under the garage door. Lots of things in the room to catch the odor. I believe from watching this video, Molly would have learned more from me not requing her, but letting Molly decide to move on. As I want her to trust herself and figure it out on her own. I realize I need to also guide her, but maybe not rush her.
Very glad to see her be happy throughout the search (tail up and wagging), and as you said she is willing to stick to it and not give up.
09/01/2016 at 12:32 pm #7528Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
I am thrilled that Molly is willing to keep working and working hard to find odor! But I’m thinking we need to take a step back and figure out why it’s taking her so long to work these problems. I see a few things that might help.
First of all, Molly is blasting into the search areas and bypassing hides at the threshold, so I think she needs a LOT of threshold work. We want her KNOWING the hide is at the threshold before she even crosses over that line.
Secondly, it seems that the two odors converging problem that we’re trying to work on just isn’t working the way we need it to with Molly working one hide to the next. So I have a plan….
Let’s do a series of searches like we did with Angie – small search area within a good sized space so you can expand the boundaries with each search. If you have Xpens you can put them up or just work the search on leash and don’t let Molly wander the entire space. (I think this is easier with physical boundaries.) So small search area to begin with just one hide, preferably near the front of the search area. This can be paired or unpaired but I think it will work better for Molly if it’s paired. Work the threshold, meaning hold Molly there until you see her turn her head towards the hide and don’t let her blast into the search area. If on-leash, use the leash to slow her momentum a bit into the space and you can hang back outside the threshold until necessary to come into the space.
Second search, expand the boundaries of the search area a bit and add a second hide, leaving the first in place and repeat.
Third search, expand the boundaries again and add a 3rd hide, leaving the first two in place and repeat.
Let’s see if this gets Molly to begin working the search before coming into the space.
Joyride K9 Dog Training
09/02/2016 at 9:24 pm #7558Linda BathParticipant
This morning I rented Betco space to do this hide. Deb was kind enough to be my videographer and commentator. She says Hi.
We set up a series of three spaces. !. Box at start line.(anise) 2. Added hide at the stacked red chairs.(birch) 3. Added hide at the farthest metal chair folded on the floor.(birch) Room was chilly, no fans.
I hold Molly before line and then when she looks towards odor (Deb saying OK?) and I release her. She checks the far box first, middle, then alerts on odor.
This time Molly goes to odor box..jack pot. She then continues towards odor, first checking out the metal chair on the ground. Follows odor (birch) to red chairs and alerts.
Molly goes straight to odor on the line. Moves toward red chairs, but checks out the box beside the red chairs. Then alert.
She then moves towards the last hide. Molly is on odor and checks the first metal chair. She then moves on to the folded chair. Alert. Yeah!!
We did a series of these searches changing locations of the hides, but still doing first one, then two, then three.
Molly seemed to catch on.
09/02/2016 at 9:56 pm #7561Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
Great job!! (Say “HEY!” to Deb!)
It seems scaling things back a bit so Molly doesn’t need to search a whole big room but can find success in smaller spaces will (a) help Molly to be focused early in the search, hopefully not missing those thresholds and (b) naturally getting her to work close converging odors. This is one of the exercises we will likely use in the “Back to Basics” course. I think there are a lot of benefits to it and I’m thrilled to see that Molly chose to go back to the threshold hide with determination and excitement!
Joyride K9 Dog Training
09/02/2016 at 10:38 pm #7562Linda BathParticipant
Molly did do very well with the simpler hide. Class is almost over. We have learned a lot. What do you suggest next?
09/03/2016 at 1:37 pm #7565Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
Honestly, I think Molly just needs more of the “add a hide” searches you just did. Different places, interior, exterior, on leash, off leash, paired, unpaired. Not sure if you were planning to take the Back to Basics course, which we will do this exercise (at least that’s the plan) for one of the lessons but it is something that will help her to understand how odors work together and help you to manage the search.
THRESHOLDS are critical! If you want to do a series of thresholds, that would be the next thing. Single hide searches entering into a space – small space, large space, interior, exterior, on leash, off-leash (small areas only).
Joyride K9 Dog Training
09/04/2016 at 12:01 am #7569Linda BathParticipant
Ok. I will do more of all of them. If I can I will sign up for the back to basics. When does it start? Can’t find it on the list of classes. Thank you so much for another great class. I have learned a lot about myself as a handler and have so much more to learn. That is the fun part! Small steps to help Molly be more confident. I had no idea before working with you how much I directed Molly. It is good that we are so in tune, but I want her to spread her wings. Deb told me about the threshold search using boxes in a line at the threshold. One hide moved at each successive search. Going to use that one on Molly.
Thank you again
As always a pleasure.
09/04/2016 at 12:08 am #7570Linda BathParticipant
Found the schedule. I will sign up for back to basics.
09/04/2016 at 5:00 pm #7573Kimberly BuchananKeymaster
Great! You have a bit before that course begins so just keep working at it! 🙂
Joyride K9 Dog Training
- The topic ‘NW501: Linda & Molly (Lab/mix Ak)’ is closed to new replies.