~JOYRIDE K9 *REMOTE* K9NW EDUCATION~

NW301: Sarah and Lily (Golden Retriever, PA)

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    • #6240
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      Lily and I have been working in Nosework for about two years now, starting when she was about 8 months old. She has her NW2 and we are preparing for NW3. She has also done trick work and a 6 week course in (level 2) tracking and trailing. I find she is incredibly enthusiastic in her searches at home, and most of the trials in the past. She was 5th in time at her NW2. She has lately been a little subdued at workshops with groups, though. Perhaps I have asked too much of her as she has been a working dog in three workshops in the past month and another last Summer.

      At the last workshop someone even suggested she might be hypothyroid! I think, instead it is lack of confidence/stress in the group setting – and she did get better when we did some tricks prior to her final searches. Ron Gaunt called her “pet”-ified. I don’t think he meant that in a bad way, as she surely is my pet. She is looking too much to me, though.

      So my goal is to get her to have more fun with the searches and backtrack on this new pattern. I want to up her confidence and improve her stamina and our teamwork. I would also like to figure out the behaviors I have that are contributing to her performance. I have been trying in many ways to improve our working relationship – the Trick work does help that, but is pretty different than the nosework.

    • #6242
      Kimberly Buchanan
      Keymaster

      Welcome Sarah! What kind of dog is Lily? How old is she?

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #6244
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      I’m sorry. She is almost 3 and a Golden Retriever. She is a little overweight, so we had attended the toy workshop to try and make a change of rewards, but she does search better for food. Thanks

    • #6245
      Kimberly Buchanan
      Keymaster

      Ah! Yes, of course! I will edit your header to reflect this. ๐Ÿ˜€

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #6269
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      Exercise 1 A

      Our Video:

      There are three boxes with odor. There are a few blank boxes you can’t see on the screen to the left.

      This was a great start for us, as we haven’t been practicing nosework for a while. I also have never videotaped us before, and I can see my technique can be improved. I think this is acceptable. It is a little long because I haven’t learned how to trim the end yet.

      She found all three hides at 2:38. The white box by the base of the tv stumped her for a while. It was birch, freshly placed, and was the only one with the hides in the middle rather than the edge of the box. There other two she found quickly were Anise and Clove. and those boxes had been marinating in odor in plastic bags for a few months and I also added fresh.

      I also learned about crowd control. I have two other dogs who know odor as well. When I started this exercise they all got away from me and burst through the door. Of course I had to pay them for their volunteered search. That was an amusing video, but I did not post it.

    • #6280
      Kimberly Buchanan
      Keymaster

      Ok! I have a couple of comments off the bat;

      I am not sure what happened with your video link but I fixed it so the video is now embedded. (The link looked the same so I’m not sure why.)

      You did a nice job with the leash, considering this is a smallish search area, trying to stay out of the way, etc.

      You will likely hear me say this many times in the future: My recommendation is to NOT mark when Lily finds a hide. Why? The first response is what are you marking? When she caught odor? When she looked at you? When she tried to get into the box? What is Lily learning? Also, since you do mark it when she goes back to a hide but you don’t pay her, what is she learning? What do you do when the search is blind? Do you mark it and if you cannot mark it what does Lily do? Does she have persistence to tell you the hide really is there or does she cue off your non-marker that she’s not correct? Just some things to think about.

      So, this search…

      It’s clear that the well-marinated hides were easy for Lily. ๐Ÿ™‚ I can see what you mean about the stress showing when she starts to scratch. When she does get the 3rd hide and you ask her to continue searching, she’s not quite as persistent with that hide as she was with the previous 2 boxes. Working thru the added challenge of different odor strengths added another level of difficulty to this search. Lily does work diligently trying to find more and we do see her range out a bit to the edges and start to wander off. She doesn’t false on you which is a good thing!

      If you were to practice this, I would suggest having hides that are aged similarly and see if it makes a difference for her. My guess is that it will. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #6285
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      That’s a good point about the marking. I am going to work on that. I will work on Part B with some lower value dis tractors and similarly aged hides tomorrow. I did a trial with cheese, bread and a tennis ball. The tennis ball got ignored, but the other two she used to pass up for odor became find dinner….

    • #6289
      Kimberly Buchanan
      Keymaster

      BUT, I bet the body language was much different with the food! ๐Ÿ™‚

      Marking a find is something a lot of people do. Come on purpose, some just an accidental reflex. I’ve caught myself doing it. But it is one place I see a major breakdown in communication because it is an impossible task to be consistent in timing and you will NOT do it when the hide is blind. So you have to consider it from the dog’s perspective. If it’s telling the dog they’re correct, find a different way that allows for some grace of time, like just going in to pay the dog, “Good Girl!” and does not rely on perfect timing. (A “YES” marker is like a clicker if the dog is conditioned to it that way, plus what are you marking?) I’ve seen really good search dogs lose their minds and confidence with blind hides because of this.

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #6297
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      I call this one Woman Smart, Dog Smarter. I broke the dog – she completely would ignore distractors at NW 2.

      See what you think. I hope link is better this time. edited to include share link, but it opens in a new window and doesn’t embed. I will look for more settings.

    • #6298
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      And if that doesn’t work this should: https://youtu.be/qAAmSPU3vm8
      Ha the other one worked. must be magic.

      Regarding the exercise. The distractor in the box that she won’t let go of is the heel of a loaf of bread. I thought I would outsmart her by putting it in a box with no flaps on the top and just poke some holes with a fork to let the scent out. She is smarter than me on that, which clearly amuses me.

      There is another box with a tennis ball that she notes, but then ig nores.

      I thought it was great that she was completely oblivious to the traffic including the motorcycles passing by. She kept searching.

      I can tell the difference with the distractor, but this is surely a fault in the making as she will destroy someone’s handbag to get at the soft pretzel inside…

    • #6316
      Kimberly Buchanan
      Keymaster

      Oh my gosh! Those are a lot of boxes super close together! That can create an added challenge, for sure!

      I guess you have found Lily’s best reward: bread. Might be something there….

      Ok, about the search; You start out with a nice fast payment as soon as Lily gets to odor. Yeah!

      Then the bread distractor was obviously a bit much for her, so whatever you do, you need to find a reward that trumps that. Even if you recognize the behavior, she completely stopped searching for our target odors. If she is obsessed about a distractor this will kill you trying to keep her focused on searching unless she has incentive. For some dogs I let them investigate the distractor and CHOOSE to continue searching. For Lily I would definitely move her along faster. FWIW, Lily spends from (:07) when she detects the box w/bread until (1:39) when she starts searching again. That’s a lot of time lost in a search.

      (Also – as a side-note, in training you could have just removed that box sooner if you realized it was going to be too hard to move her on. ๐Ÿ™‚ )

      You mention a tennis ball as a distractor, what was the 3rd? I didn’t notice her being too interested in the other boxes aside from the bread and odor.

      You do a very nice job of paying Lily quickly. The only thing missing is the “not” paying for 30-60 seconds to see what behavior is elicited. Does she range out, does she false on a blank box, does she try to get back to the bread box?

      Lily did a terrific job of ignoring the traffic. Yikes, that’s loud! ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #6317
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      I knew the bread was going to be a problem from our pretest, so I only went with two distractors and I finally did remove the bread box over the fence. She did liberate the bread from the box, which is all kinds of wrong, but let it go with some stern words from me.

      My house and yard have many small spaces. I think I would have been better off on grass, but initially I thought that might be making it tough. We did keep going after the end of the video, and she behaved as she did inside ranging out. I don’t really ever see her false alert for a payday or to please me.

      Today we did some four box shell game speed drills with one box having well secured bread (and I did use bread as a treat!) one odor and two blanks with me sitting with the boxes at my feet so I had a little better control on speedy rewarding. I went for big big pay days on the odor. By the end she was passing up the bread and heading to the odor regardless of placement.

      I did find myself saying “Leave it” at the bread box initially in these drills (maybe 3/8 times). I think that is probably not a great idea.

    • #6323
      Kimberly Buchanan
      Keymaster

      Great idea, Sarah! I think saying “Leave it” depends on the dog. For a soft dog that might be enough to turn them off odor altogether. For a dog who is strong on odor but resilient to that type of thing it’s not necessarily bad. In this context she was able to quickly earn a reward for the correct choices so it sounds like it was very black and white for Lily.

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #6381
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      Lily and I did the three exercises today. This is the first video with high hides. I did set it up on the grass and cooked the hides for an hour. The wind was very fierce, and the tall hides (and decoys) were knocked over frequently. The wind is blowing towards the camera. The time she is off screen after we started she was actively searching downwind and clearly trying to find an edge of the scent. Pretty quick despite this, though. Hoping the video embeds this time. It is still a little mystery to me. *I did trim the video, but the full video uploaded. The search doesn’t start until about 20 seconds in, sorry.

    • #6384
      Kimberly Buchanan
      Keymaster

      One of the things I love about doing an online course is that I get to see what the weather is doing all across the country! What a great day for an outside container search! As you can see, with the tall containers the odor was really blowing far off the screen. In the view that we have the hides look like they’re blowing one onto the next.

      It takes Lily awhile to figure out the problem – good patience letting her do this at her own pace – and you’ll notice that she “finds” the furthest hide first, then works from the upwind side to get the middle hide and finally the hide closest to us. She even dips her head into the basket closest to the camera but still takes a bit to solve that part of the problem.

      Some dogs work best from the downwind side and some from the upwind side. I’m curious to see if Lily does the same type of “figuring” when the hides are low. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Nice job! ๐Ÿ˜€

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #6391
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      I decided to do all of the exercises yesterday to keep the wind effects a relative constant. Despite that, an unexpected complication was introduced in the last (high and low) search which will come up in the last video.

      The hide on the tall basket closest to the camera in the previous video was on the exterior where she ultimately finds it. I didn’t want to reward the head dip into the basket, but I can bet there was a lot of odor there. I am going to pay attention to how she sources best in wind. Maybe I can help her by directing her upwind to start if that is her most successful pattern. Hard to tell with the low hide video as all are on the upwind or middle.

      You will see she does her signature scratch before finding the last hide.

    • #6397
      Kimberly Buchanan
      Keymaster

      One of the things I noticed in this video – and as I went back to review part A I saw the same – is that you stay essentially in the middle of the search area, acting as a “hub” of the search, letting Lily span out from where you are positioned. What can happen, and we see this, is when Lily gets to the end of the leash, she doesn’t always try to get further. We see early on in the last video with the elevated hides that she spends a lot of time off camera, I’m guessing working out and away from the hides (which is good). In this search there is one occasion in particular where she hits the end of the leash near a hide but doesn’t make it to the other side of the bag so doesn’t source the odor.

      Look at the section in the very beginning. At (:07), Lily is pulling towards the hide to the far right. Your leash pressure and position seem to influence her to not go further. In fact, you aren’t moving at all, just letting her strain at the leash. She even gets to the actual bag at (:08) but again, not to the outside right of the bag, doesn’t source odor and leaves. It all happens very quickly but I wonder if there is significance here?

      Lily nicely locates the first hide in the furthest bag, working between containers that it is blowing on. (She works from down-wind but picks off the hide furthest out first.)

      Now we see Lily ranging out again, off camera to the left. In fact, your leash drops and as you pick it up again, Lily comes back. Was she working surfaces for other odors? Did she come back to you because the leash tension changed? I dunno? She does make it out there later and we see her travel to the right at one point. (All off camera. ๐Ÿ˜‰ )

      The other thing that strikes me is with the last 2 hides, Lily is NEAR odor and looks at you both times. At the second hide, she looks at you at (:37), you move and she finds the hide at (:44). With the last hide, she goes back to the right side, catches odor at the bag NEXT TO the odor bag and looks at you expectantly (1:04). You know where the hide is, so you don’t give her any feedback and then she scratches. (Signature scratch!) Shortly afterwards she finds the 3rd and final hide at (1:15).

      I’m not sure what this all means, but I’m starting to see some “things” happening.

      I have to wonder what would have happened with these searches if she was off-leash? Would she stay off camera for longer or would she work the hides faster?

      Also – you note in your comments that there is a hide on the side of a tall trash container and that you didn’t want to reward Lily for putting her head inside the container. Why not? If we’re talking about Containers, anyplace on that container is correct, right? ๐Ÿ™‚

      Thoughts?

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #6398
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      Interesting observations. We do a lot off leash, and when I first started I would follow after her (one of the judges said it was like I had an invisible leash and suggested I should stand still.) Because of that, I think, I try not to move to much, but perhaps I am constraining her when on leash. I do think the scratch comes when she finds the problem hard, but usually right after the scratch she solves it.

      I can try these exercises off leash (though I don’t know if the wind will cooperate) when Lily and I get back to Philly at the end of the week. I work up in the mountains, and I don’t have everything I need.

      I did want her to identify the source in the previous exercise to show that source is what pays. Even if it is not needed for containers, isn’t that something that could come up in interiors, exteriors, etc?

      I have the last one ready – new problems there!

    • #6399
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      So for the final exercise – Low and high – we still battled the wind. At one point you see me bending down and picking something up – the hide itself blew off its tall perch during the search and I had to replace it atop the wicker basket.

      But we had a new challenge. My daughter had come over to mow the lawn and thought she would disturb us less if she started in the front where I had the hides cooking. She moved some of the items and you will see a few corridors of freshly mown (fragrant!) lawn. I put things back and we got to work anyway. Poor Lily. I ask a lot of her!

      This time she finds the most down wind hide first(approaching from upwind, though.). She does her scratch near the last hide, (which is inside a low shaving kit bag) but doesn’t find it immediately. I can see I do hold some tension on her leash rather than follow her. I don’t get the feeling she asks me where the hides are, but maybe I am missing it.

    • #6426
      Kimberly Buchanan
      Keymaster

      I see some of the same things happening in this video – your position remaining mostly in the middle, Lily ranging out a bit but limited and mostly in one area.

      Take note, Lily is held back from getting too far (:17-:20) and misses being downwind of the hide she eventually gets first. Look at the headsnap at (:52) once she is in the right spot to notice! ๐Ÿ™‚

      Lily does get more to the right side on this search but I think because the hide had fallen off the tall tan container she misses that hide. When you put it back in place, it seems Lily is working that hide from the first one, notices it bouncing off the side-ways clear container to the right and finally catches it (or loses it and realizes where it is) upwind (1:22). One thing I want you to notice is how much you’re blocking that hide with your position. I think this is one reason she didn’t go directly there.

      With the last hide, I like that you stepped outside the search area to better utilize the draw of the objects so Lily is likely to notice the low bag. For some reason she doesn’t notice it right away. It’s hard to tell if she just stumbles upon the last hide or works it from the adjacent container (obscured behind the tall blue bin) but she does work to source on that one. It looks like you have an open bag and I’m assuming there is odor inside the bag. Could have been holding onto the odor so not much was coming out. We can’t see what the material is.

      Regarding Lily’s scratching; Have you tried working her on a collar instead of a harness? Granted, it could be Lily’s “way” to take a moment to think or it could be the harness is bothering her. Just a thought!

      Overall Lily works well. She’s definitely trying hard to find odor, it’s just a matter of how to handle her in this type of environment. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #6434
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      I think she did work back from the tall object to the last low one. It was my husband’s empty leather shaving kit bag and the odor was inside. I think it probably did hold onto the odor.

      I will work on getting out of her way. I can see the benefit of doing the exercises on separate occasions rather than all together as I did so I can benefit from your commentary better. With the travel this week, I thought it better to do all together, but I think I will figure that out better for the future.

      I have worked Lily without the harness in the past and didn’t notice a difference in the scratching. In fact, when I walk her to potty with no harness and I ask her to “better go now” or hurry up and poop she will look stop and scratch and look at me. (She is a very discerning pooper.) She has no rashes, and she doesn’t scratch at any other time – like lying around in the evening for example. It has been a while since I tried without the harness, though, so I will try it again to see what she does now.

    • #6453
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      Hi, Kim,
      Based on your questions. I tried a similar exercise with no wind, no harness and no leash. I also tried a different strategy for walking around the containers that I would recreate on leash.

      If we want to know if she is faster off leash, I would go with no. She strays very far away and one point I bring her back. That time she is eating grass, but all the rest of the time she is searching when off camera. The low hide on the middle black case is the most challenging for her. The hides were birch, anise and clove.

      I have two other dogs, one with an ORT in birch and the other with no certification or titles. I let them run this course and they were both faster than Lily, though they cheated a little and I helped them both with the high hide on the brown suitcase that she got easily. I don’t do NW with either of them as they don’t have the temperament for the competition experience.

    • #6454
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      Addendum: I make it hard on Lily again. The first time she is off camera above she is checking out the sealed plastic container that I use for hides. I am sure it had odor on it, but I didn’t reward as it was not “source”. That and searching the area around it took a bit. I usually would leave it there when she was on leash and now realize that is a big distractor.

    • #6455
      Kimberly Buchanan
      Keymaster

      Well, I would have to agree with you. On leash seems to keep Lily on task. Left off-leash she seems to work a little bit, go off and sniff other things a little bit. Easier for her to get distracted. Also, we can’t see if she’s working off-camera so since it seems to take awhile for her to come back into view, I’m making the assumption that she’s working “other” odors. ?

      Also, consider the hides are pretty close together so part of the issue could be the challenge of the search. If she’s not really adept at working 3 hides super close together that problem might just be too much to also try off-leash.

      I’m not saying you should work off-leash, but if you wanted to practice some skills that could be useful down the road (think Elite+) I would start with one or two hides further apart at first.

      Interesting to see! ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #6547
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      So after we completed this video (my mom and husband came to help) we did have a chance to talk with the manager and security guard at the store who were suspicious about us taking pictures. I think that was OK though my mom is concerned that the FBI is coming.

      Lily did great. This was actually the second exercise we did this morning in the 90 degree weather with only slight intermittent breeze. The hides are not aged, or I would be in prison now. The first exercise had some challenges, so I asked my mom, who was setting the hides, to make them visible so I could be sure to reward promptly and not get any pawing behavior. Lily does not seem to key into the sight cues anyway.

    • #6558
      Kimberly Buchanan
      Keymaster

      Great, creative way to create a triad of odor! Interesting that Lily notices the middle hide as she walks by it the first time but is then drawn to the red car hide. She goes back to the blue car immediately but then decides there is a 3rd odor. I’m super impressed that she was able to figure all 3 out within about 49 seconds! ๐Ÿ™‚ There were quite a bit of distractions in the environment and Lily wasn’t fazed by any of it. Good job! ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #6565
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      So we did this exercise first of the two. It was quite warm out, but even better off camera near the front of the cars was a critter hole that Lily had to check out! When we are off screen she is sniffing there and I am redirecting. Sorry for the camera angle. It was so bright out, I couldn’t really tell I was not in a good position. It does capture the action of the problem of staying out of the dog’s way in a narrow corridor. Not too pleased with how well I did that.

    • #6574
      Kimberly Buchanan
      Keymaster

      Lily does not seem to be her normal enthusiastic searcher as she begins working these vehicles. She gets the first hide and then about (:53) she seems to think she’s done? Rather than moving forward as you did, I would recommend stopping where you were at the passenger rear corner and just waiting for her turn back to the vehicle. You could even reel her in and shorten your line so she doesn’t range out quite so much. For her she doesn’t appear to be working odor so having her work away from the vehicle didn’t really help. Had she worked from the back of the vehicle, she might have picked up the wheel well hide on the red car. I know you tried to get her to check it but it looks like you may have been crowding her a bit and it pushed her on.

      After that it looks like she’s sniffing the ground? (Hard to see.) Some dogs work odor from the ground but her body language doesn’t look like she’s actually working when she’s doing that.

      Lily does get the second hide around (1:35) but doesn’t seem to be satisfied with just one payment. This could be because she hasn’t detected another odor OR you may have a routine of paying more than once? She just doesn’t want to move off of it. You do the best you can to keep her moving which looks to be a challenge. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Once she turns around and focuses on the Toyota again (2:16) she quickly works to the last hide.

      With the video angle we don’t see much of Lily in this search so it’s hard to really grasp what is happening. She seems really distracted by the environment on this day and you mention the critter at the front. Do you have any additional thoughts?

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #6586
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      Yes I think she was distracted by the location (funny since motorcycles etc don’t seem to faze her) and also by the heat. This is sort of the way she searches when we are at workshops. All the prior searches were at home – and yes, she is enthusiastic there.

      The earlier video with the triangle was actually shot a few minutes after that. She seemed to have more alacrity then.

      I am thinking that I need to bring her out to more locations.

      As for the hide where I pay her a few times, I actually couldn’t tell where it was. I delayed a bit and she started pawing. At my husband’s car. Perhaps you heard him crying in the background. He goes to the body shop every other month to get something fixed on that 2001 car! So I was trying to pay her again before the paw came out. I think she recognized a jackpot… My mom planted the hides pretty well ๐Ÿ™‚

    • #6613
      Kimberly Buchanan
      Keymaster

      Maybe you could up the ante in your rewards when you’re not at home? Make it more exciting so when you go somewhere she can anticipate something special as a reward and may be more invested in the game? Just a thought!

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #6619
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      That sounds good, and also just the practice away from home. I did the first two parts of this week’s exercise. Unfortunately the ground one was not filming when I thought it was. Only sort of unfortunate because that is not our strong suit, and we love a do over. I sent her “brothers” through the ground course and the collie was successful in under 30 seconds on three hides. Lily and I are a little pokier.
      Here is the 1-3 foot hide video. I am an indulgent mother and pay her to stay at one of the hides perhaps once too often. That may be part of the poky factor. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Edited to add: We came out the front door of our house with her harnessed up. The previous search had been in the front yard and she completely dragged me to the gate to the back yard in odor the whole time. I also notice that she scratches twice then almost immediately finds the hide, so that behavior seems to be doing something for her.

    • #6624
      Kimberly Buchanan
      Keymaster

      I liked this search. ๐Ÿ™‚ I know Lily went back to a hide but she was clearly sorting out between the chair and table. Her scratching is so interesting. Somehow she seems to have figured out by scratching she can take a pause to think a moment before continuing. The way she worked the far table hide from the back of the nearby chair was neat to watch. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #6626
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      I like this one too. I just watched it again, and it seems like she is having fun and we are playing together.

    • #6630
      Kimberly Buchanan
      Keymaster

      Yes, much more partnership here! ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #6638
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      So I did the ground level hides at the house in the mountains. This is a longer video, but I thought still useful, so I am posting the whole thing. I aged 4 hides for an hour. She spots that there is something going on at the tree right away, but cannot find the hide there until I drop a treat on it at about 5:05. She finds the other hides pretty easily. (And this isn’t smellovision, so you can’t appreciate that the neighbor just spread manure.)

      I find she has the hardest time with the ground level hides, so I wanted to let her go on this so she could work things out. She usually is standing right on them when she misses them.

      When we were at your Toy seminar, Kim, you showed several videos from Ron Gaunt and I noticed he set a lot of high hides. I had seminar with him the next month so we practiced high hides quite a bit. We see her going up the tree here, so I think I have have taught her that will be successful.

      I try leading her by the tree at different approaches to help her, but I might have spent a lot of time getting in her way… this was good practice for both of us.

    • #6648
      Kimberly Buchanan
      Keymaster

      One of the things that can happen as we progress in competition level and train for more complicated searches is we have this impression that the ground hides are “easy” in comparison. Well, they’re probably “easy” if you’ve been practicing them but it’s easy for the dog to “presume” the hides are in a location based on the most recent training. So if you’ve been doing a lot of high hides, it surely can be that the dog assumes most hides are high.

      I did watch thru the whole video a couple of times and it’s fascinating that Lily does her “scratching” on multiple occasions. She’s got a lot to think about so her “time-outs” are frequent with this search!

      You drop food on the hide after 5 minutes of searching which gave Lily the help she needed. Sometimes you do what you have to do. You also could just take Lily out of the search, remove the other hides and see if she can figure out that particular hide on its own. OR you could put Lily up and pair all the hides to see if that makes a difference. I would also experiment with hides at the base of posts vs elevated on the posts vs a few feet away to see if Lily can decipher the difference. But only do that exercise, one at a time, so you don’t add the confusion of multiple hides, as well.

      I would agree that as much as you try to give Lily an opportunity it doesn’t seem to help and she just keeps getting frustrated. Really good lesson for you both and I would encourage you to keep working this type of hides, again, as I mention above but also with multiples as well. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #6650
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      Great ideas for exercises to help build our problem solving, thanks. I will work on those separately and probably leave a base of tree/pole hide out of the final exercise in this lesson until I can work this issue. I was glad I chose different kinds of ground hides to work on here so I could see the different effects they had. They are tough!

    • #6671
      Kimberly Buchanan
      Keymaster

      Great idea to try a variety to see what challenges each poses!

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #6691
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      Well, I am up in the mountains this week, and it took half a day to upload a video. This may be the last one I can get up before the class ends. This was one we did off leash at home for high exterior hides. My trimmed video didn’t get uploaded so am linking to start at 50s.

      I notice a few things. She locates the areas of the three hides fairly quickly (and maybe I should have paid those at 2:05 or so) but doesn’t really go after the second (blue bird feeder) until I hold a piece of food up near the hide. I think that is cheating. I then try walking in different directions around the red chair to disrupt the air flow and bring her from different approaches. She ultimately gets that. I think the walking around the hide I did for the red chair helped her.

      Going forward I think it is good for me to note where she first shows interest. She may not identify it, but she is accurate about the vicinity.
      Note: when she is going off screen left and looks back to me, she is at a gate to the rest of the yard. I didn’t see that as alert behavior, but it may look like that.

    • #6705
      Kimberly Buchanan
      Keymaster

      Ok, let’s take a look at this search….

      Based on the direction of the fluff in the air, it appears Lily begins up-wind. Her inclination is to sniff the ground and track whatever is there. My guess is that she’s not yet detected odor (up-wind) so she does what dogs do, sniff the ground.

      At about the (1:00) mark, Lily catches something on the foliage and turns back towards what we know to be an elevated hide. She cruises past the chair and finds the hide on the covered BBQ(?) instead. We have a hide spill (it happens) so that takes a few moments to pick up and then get Lily back to searching.

      Lily again heads far down-wind, catches odor again and looks back. Again, she passes the chair. Notices chair, notices bird feeder. I think, after watching this a couple of times, it looks like you are in the exact area where Lily needs to use the environment (bushes) to help her solve the problem. Note how she’s trying to get to the bushes behind you (2:27) and comes to a standstill.

      The BBQ/Chair seem to be converging and hitting the area where you are located for much of the search. GOOD JOB staying out of her way but just something that I see as Lily is trying to figure it all out. In this case I don’t think you should have paid her at the (2:05) mark (you didn’t) and I don’t think you should have led her to the bird feeder with food. I think Lily just needed a bit more time to work out the problem and something seems to be distracting her below the feeder. She will have better learning if she does that but I realize in the time crunch of a video where you’d want to step in. She wasn’t giving up, tho’.

      Note that Lily comes back to the BBQ and then fairly quickly solves the chair problem. Good work!

      One other thing to note: I knew exactly where the chair hide was based on YOUR behavior. I saw you start to move in to pay Lily at (2:04) and then stop when she didn’t stay there. However, it is something to think on. If *I* saw that, consider what the dog sees in the middle of a search and how much that could cue that dog?

      Anyhow, I think what we’re seeing is a complicated search area that Lily just needs more time to solve. I might set up more converging odor problems with pairing so Lily can self-reward without you being so close. Hides would obviously need to be reachable but we can see that Lily clearly has no issue going up. Similar to the ground hides, let’s see what Lily finds challenging. Something to think about. ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

    • #6712
      Sarah Sorlien
      Participant

      Great things to think about. I see what you mean about me getting in her way. This is a great thing about the videos. Thanks for your insights.

    • #6718
      Kimberly Buchanan
      Keymaster

      Of course! I hope you’re able to upload more videos! ๐Ÿ™‚

      Kimberly Buchanan
      Joyride K9 Dog Training

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